Psychological Safety & Trauma-Informed Practices in Healthcare: A Deep Dive with Kimberlee Bateman (#008)
===
[00:00:00] At some point along the way, people are like, well, I'm an adult now. I don't, I don't deal with that. I don't have to work through that. This is my present day. That doesn't actually affect me anymore. And whether we like it or not, our nervous system has no sense of time. Like it's the same nervous system today as it was back then, so it's still going to affect you today.
[00:00:25] Welcome to Safe Space Made Simple, a practical podcast that guides clinical leaders and healthcare managers to create trust and support with their teams. I'm your host, Trace Hobson. Join me for weekly interviews, practical tools, and inspiring transformational stories of bringing people together in healthcare.
[00:00:44] Now, let's dive in. Hey everybody, welcome to Safe Space Made Simple, episode number 8. My name is Trace Hobson, I'm your host. The question I have for you today is, do you know what to do with your emotions at work? Or Like [00:01:00] many, are you one of those people that just pushes your emotions down and continues to soldier on and suck it up and keep going?
[00:01:10] Now, if you're like me and the people that I work with, this is a really common phenomenon in healthcare. I'm excited to have Kimberly Bateman, a registered clinical counselor on the show today. And we talk about a number of things relating to how we can take care of ourselves in the moment and actually translate the emotions that we have.
[00:01:30] My conversation with Kimberly takes us into the realm of really noticing whether or not we're stuffing emotions and what the effect of that might be on our work, as well as on our lives. Kimberly is a registered clinical counselor who practices in the Fraser Valley of British Columbia, Canada, and has an undergrad degree in psychology as well as a master's degree in counseling psychology as well.
[00:01:53] If you are navigating any kind of distress, cumulative stress, or unaddressed systemic trauma at work, then [00:02:00] this episode is going to serve you powerfully. Now, without further ado, let's get right into the show. So Kimberly, I want to welcome you here to the Safe Space Made Simple podcast. Thanks for being on with us.
[00:02:11] To start off with, it would be wonderful if we could just learn a little bit more about you and what you do in the world and, you know, what you'd like to share with an audience of healthcare workers and people that are out there oftentimes in really chaotic, stressful environments. I think, so, first of all, my name is Kim Bateman.
[00:02:34] I am a registered clinical counsellor. I kind of came to my work because I wanted to marry my lived experience with some skill to like really be able to help people heal. And I think that translates into all healthcare. A lot of the time, people just really want to help. Right? So that's the motivation and the desire that I have the most.
[00:02:59] [00:03:00] Why is it that you chose to do the work that you do now as a clinical counselor? Why did, you know, what was the sort of origin story for, for you around that? Oh, you know, I tried on a lot of different things to kind of get to where I am. I worked as a long term care aide, in home support, and that kind of was born out of having my oldest son with a disability.
[00:03:28] And I thought, oh, you know, this is familiar. I can help in this way. And I quickly discovered, actually, that that was not my calling. And in fact, helping people physically was not. What lit me up, right? So I started to investigate further, like what I do want to help people and what does that look like for me, and I kind of realized I really, I can get lost in helping people with their emotions and psychologically and kind of ended up down that path and it's like, okay, there's a whole [00:04:00] other branch over here that seems to fit my personality and my gift mix a little bit better.
[00:04:07] Now, when it comes to clinical counseling, there's lots of different sort of schools or things that you could focus on with that. What part really gets your attention that you focus on as it relates to clinical counseling? Trauma. To put it very simply. I think it's funny cause it, it, it is a bit of a buzzword right now and it, it's everywhere.
[00:04:31] And I think people are contending with, longstanding effects of traumatic type experiences in their lives. And I, I would say I'm specifically really interested in the relational piece within that. I love the idea of tracking somebody's history to be able to understand who they are today and You know, a lot of the times what we contend with [00:05:00] relationally in terms of our work spaces, our coworkers, our families, all are born from how we see ourselves and how we've related to our family of origin.
[00:05:12] Those relational templates carry forward and a lot of the time we're very unconscious about that and we don't even really know that that's what's happening. It shows up as stress. shows up as arguments, shows up as intolerance, um, shows up as not being able to sleep, physical problems, like these are all the like really practical ways that it shows up.
[00:05:38] Yeah, it's interesting you're sharing that because I know as I work with clinical leaders and teams and health care managers and also staff that are on the front end or point of care of health care, they all share what you just said, you know, a lot of them have difficulty sleeping. A lot of times they [00:06:00] find that they are not able to eat like they would like to, you know, Or they have numbing behaviors where they're sort of numbing out.
[00:06:07] And it makes me wonder about the systemic trauma that they might be experiencing in that system, because we know that there's huge amounts of cumulative stress and distress that's going on. There's also primary and secondary trauma that people are Either witnessing or that's being triggered that they're caring in in a setting like that.
[00:06:29] So, of course, that does come out as conflicts or arguments or, you know, disrespectful conduct or bullying or harassment discrimination. I'm curious, you know, what your thoughts are on what we do or can do. As a human being in that kind of a chaotic system to take care of ourselves. Yeah, that's, that's a big question.
[00:06:57] I think there isn't any one easy [00:07:00] answer to that, but I do in my own practice and what I'm noticing is working for me and with my clients and it seems very simple. But pace. Like, being able to really slow down and be present and be with what's happening in the moment is so powerful. It, it, it's easier said than done.
[00:07:23] And in fact, let's put it this way. I see trauma, I kind of simplify it, I explain it to my clients in this way. It's too much, too fast with not enough support. This interprets something and our brain interprets something as being traumatic to us. So the opposite is what we need to do. We need to slow down.
[00:07:49] We need to have lots of support, both externally and internally. And we need to take little bits at a time so that our nervous system has a chance to catch up. [00:08:00] Our brain, our mind goes at a very different pace than our nervous system does. And our culture, our world, Lives at that cognitive really fast pace.
[00:08:11] Mm. So I've noticed that as I slow down with my clients and I really privilege the pace of their nervous system and what it's telling me, that's where healing occurs. That's where shifts happen, and that's where like that unconscious becomes conscious for them in terms of connecting the behavior to what's happening inside.
[00:08:34] Yeah. That's powerful what you're sharing. I, I know that when. People that go into healthcare go into it. They go into it, typically speaking, because they want to make a meaningful difference in people's lives. They want to take care of others and help other people, whether they're a leader, a clinical leader, or a point of care practitioner.
[00:08:55] That's a big part of what drives them. And I also noticed along with that, [00:09:00] that many people have this idea that if I sacrifice myself in the process of that, then I'll take care of people. You know, so I, I don't take care of myself. I know I should, but I don't. And I, I, I continue to try to do more work, do more things, and then try to, you know, at the end of the task list, maybe I'll take care of myself if I even make it onto the list.
[00:09:24] And so there's this big. Sort of cultural way of being that is really counter productive for people and damaging. And so I wonder, you know, as you're talking about slowing down and pacing and how that contributes to taking care of somebody's well being, what are some of the things that you've had to create within yourself and also that you help your clients create?
[00:09:52] In beliefs about that, especially when it's happened when chaos is happening around them or busyness is happening around them. Yeah, I think it's [00:10:00] really hard to buck the system. Like there's there's it's almost like a badge of honor when you can like way knuckle it through and come out the other side and look at how strong you are.
[00:10:09] Right? And, you know, we've all been there. I've been there. And. Really, it's very counterintuitive to slow down and like press pause and take a minute and to like sit with what's happening inside and then move forward. And it feels so contrary to what's going on around us. So, even practicing that, like really in the minutest way, like, can be super helpful.
[00:10:37] I do it with my clients in session. We practice slowing down together. We talk about what's happening in the space between us. Maybe I'm talking about something and they're looking off into the distance. I'll be like, hey, what, where'd you go? Like, where are you there? And, you know, they're always a little bit surprised at that dynamic between me and [00:11:00] them and that immediacy of like talking about what's happening right now.
[00:11:04] But there's so much depth when you can do that. When you actually let yourself press pause. Give yourself permission to actually acknowledge what's going on before proceeding into something maybe that's super stressful. It really, it's empowering. You start to kind of get in line again with your core values, why you were there to begin with, what's important to you, um, It's funny how you talked about the inclination to take care of everybody else before ourselves, and the truth is, really, you're doing everyone else a disservice by doing that because they're not getting your best.
[00:11:47] You know, like when our cup is half full and we're trying to pour it out everywhere or even empty and we're trying to pour out from that place of emptiness, there, people aren't really getting the fullness of who we are and we're [00:12:00] not giving in a way that's sustainable, right? Yeah, no, we're not. And I, I also like what you're saying about how prioritizing yourself.
[00:12:09] Actually taking care of yourself, even in a micro moment is a way to put yourself at the top of that list and slow down and be present in that moment. Even if there is, it's the eye of the storm, you know, you've got everything whirling around you at a hundred miles an hour. And then, you know, when you get present, you're in that moment in the middle.
[00:12:31] Where there's, it's clear and you're taking a deep breath, you're being with one other person, or you're taking a moment to appreciate and acknowledge yourself, you know, that's really powerful. And it's in essence, that's what you're doing is you're putting yourself at the top of the list and taking care of yourself so that then you can be off the list completely and, and take care of whatever's going on in front of you.
[00:12:57] I wonder what your thoughts are about why the [00:13:00] present moment is so powerful for healing and for taking care of yourself. Well, I think we're biologically designed that way. First of all, like we were, you know, when you think of babies and pets and animals, why do people love being around them so much?
[00:13:15] It's because they don't worry about the past. They're not thinking about the future. They're in the moment. There's something so powerful about that and it's very, our nervous systems know, hey, that's where you need to be. Other part, like being in nature. So there's certain things that just speak to us naturally.
[00:13:30] And it's almost as if we forgot that about ourselves. Like this is how we're designed. Like you couple that with. How we experience emotion all the time, unconsciously, and we have zero idea how to actually talk about that. Right. As a culture, like, it, we're a little emotion phobic, like we don't, there's, there's so much stigma around, hey, I'm feeling sad today, you know, [00:14:00] and even just slowing down to let, give yourself permission to have that experience, it's actually happening, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.
[00:14:09] Gives ourselves. It's, it's almost like we become more whole, we're not like fragmented all over the place, right? Well, yeah, I, I, when I think about what you're saying now, I notice if you talk about trauma, the way that I, in my sort of rudimentary understanding of it, kind of think about that is that when something happens that is too much for me and that does overwhelm me and my capacity or my resources, there's, it's almost like there's a, There's a fragmentation that happens in my nervous system so that I can disassociate from the moment and protect a part of myself so that at some point, I think that our natural system is designed this way so that when we feel safe enough, we can come back and reintegrate that part of ourselves.
[00:14:59] But our [00:15:00] intellect or life or a lack of a safe space. May make that really difficult. And so we just keep sort of piling it on moving forward. And then it makes being in the present moment really hard, I think, for some people, because it requires when you you're present and you feel safe. The natural byproduct of that is that those emotions, those fragmentations that you're talking about will want to naturally coalesce back into the whole.
[00:15:30] And that means we gotta feel our feelings and share them and actually process them and address what's going on. And I know that there's lots of people that I work with that as soon as we create a safe space and they're present in the moment, those feelings are so ready. To come into the whole of who they are again, that they're oftentimes a little frightened by that.
[00:15:55] And, you know, I think of some of the managers and leaders who say, Oh, I don't [00:16:00] have time for that nonsense. I don't have time for those feelings or the woo. That's what they call that. The woo. Oh, we're going to talk. Are we all going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya now? I don't have time for that. I'm too busy for that.
[00:16:11] And it makes me wonder. If part of that is just an unconscious defense mechanism that they have, that they've learned to cope with what's going on inside of them, and what the invitation might really be of that for those folks. You know, I feel like that is a much longer conversation because the reality is this is what I do and this is how we build kind of relationship with my clients.
[00:16:37] How I, when I do history taking, I get a sense of, you know, what, what was the way that your family expressed emotion and experienced emotion? What was the way that your family dealt with conflict? How did that look for you? What was that like growing up with that? And that Is what people bring with them [00:17:00] into their adult life.
[00:17:02] And the reality is, at some point along the way, people are like, well, I'm an adult now. I don't, I don't deal with that. I don't have to work through that . You know, like, this is my present day. That doesn't actually affect me anymore. Mm-Hmm. . And whether we like it or not, our nervous system has no sense of time.
[00:17:21] Right? Like it's the same nervous system today as it was back then. Mm-Hmm. . So it's still gonna affect you today. And even having that conversation with my clients and be like, Yeah, I know you don't like emotions. I get it. You know, nobody does. I have this really cool analogy that I use with my clients in terms of how to describe what emotions are.
[00:17:44] And it's as simple as this. So I, I compare it to a dashboard of a car. When the engine light comes on, you need to take your car in and get serviced, or at least have it looked at. Gas light comes on, what does it mean about the car? Well, it needs [00:18:00] gas. Yeah, like it's pretty clear oil light comes on, Hey, maybe you check your oil, right?
[00:18:06] So we don't put black tape over the signal lights and pretend it's not happening or our car will break down, right? Like it's not going to run at peak performance. We don't, if the, everything's flashing and we just pretend it's okay, our car is not, it's going to seize, right? So the signal lights, those are our emotions.
[00:18:28] So they're neutral. They're not right or wrong. They just tell us what we're needing. They tell us what our system is needing. Right? So, when we're feeling sad, it's telling us, oh, maybe we need some comfort. And most people aren't willing to slow down enough to acknowledge, hey, a light's showing us something.
[00:18:49] Right. It's telling us what we're needing. And let's face it. Gaslight comes on, it's inconvenient. Like, we don't want to have to stop and get gas. Yes. Yes. A [00:19:00] pain in the ass, to be honest, like we don't, we don't find it convenient to have to take her car in to get service, but we do it anyway, because we know it's required.
[00:19:10] Similarly, our emotions are there for a reason. They have purpose, right? So, totally inconvenient. You could be in the grocery store, a song could come on, all of a sudden you get a wash of emotion, and you're like, well, this is Inconvenient, uncomfortable. I don't want to feel it right now. Right. It makes me wonder, I'm just thinking of my, the old beater that I used to have that had a knock sensor light that came on that I never bothered fixing and, and to, you know, with your metaphor, it's, it's a perfect example of what happens for a lot of people, I think, and a lot of leaders that I work with that kind of go, yeah, you know, the car still works.
[00:19:50] I I'm, I'm okay. I'm going to keep going. So what would be some of the indicators? In a person's life that the light is [00:20:00] on and they're ignoring it is, is creating some consequences in their workplace, in their relationships, in their life. I think our culture, it's everywhere. Like, you think of the medical system and how broken it is, like, there's so much, so much there.
[00:20:20] Personally speaking, I would say if you're having a repeating conflict. That doesn't go away. If you're having a, uh, a big reaction to something over and over and over again, and you're having a hard time managing it, if you have anxiety, if you have depression, If you have any mental illness, chances are there needs to be some care and attention given to your system and it's emotional, like the emotions and the needs connected.
[00:20:53] There needs to be some nurture and some acknowledgement and some kindness, right? [00:21:00] A lot of the time the signal lights come on, the emotions come on, and we get angry. We have feelings about the feelings. We're just like that. Right. Yeah, I think it's even, it can even be more subtle too, because, you know, busyness and being so wired on the busyness of my work or my life that I can't be present.
[00:21:21] I won't be present. I'm busy all the time until I finally, at the end of the day, I just fall into bed exhausted is probably an indicator to that. You know, if you can't be present with people, Okay. One conversation at a time if you're thinking about everything else you've got to do and that's chronic for you Then I think that that would also be an indicator, you know, it's also funny, too I think about some of the team dynamics or the system dynamics in the health care system in in Canada the United States and Holland as well with people that I work with and there's these repeating you said repeating like there's a repeating things [00:22:00] that keep coming to the surface that we think are Because of a whole bunch of other things, burnout, absenteeism, you know, disrespectful conduct, bullying, harassment, discrimination, discriminatory harassment.
[00:22:12] We think that's because, well, it's stressful, or we have staff shortages, or we have all these sort of like, you know, logical reasons. The longer that I work with this kind of, um, system and also create safe spaces with others, I'm noticing that those are actually symptomatic, those repeating things are symptomatic of A system that needs healing from, from trauma, but also the invitation for the individual leader is like, this is triggering you for a reason.
[00:22:47] There's, there's something here for you to pay attention to for yourself so that you can show up and create a safe space with other people. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to do that, A, and B, there's [00:23:00] going to be all kinds of consequences in your life because of it. Yeah, it's a tough thing, like, you know, responsibility taking, like, the only person we're responsible for is ourselves.
[00:23:11] Not, not our team, not the system, not how it's running. The reality is how we show up from day to day, moment to moment. That's our job. And it does, you're seeing it. It does have the systemic effect, right? It really does. I'm not saying it like this is simplifying a much bigger, bigger issue. Like the, the truth is we're talking about some really big systemic stuff.
[00:23:37] Right. I'm talking on an individual level and like a really micro level. Right. In terms of effecting change at a team level or like a government level, you know, obviously it requires more than one individual, right? But the thing is, if, if I'm coming together and I'm doing my work on my inner [00:24:00] landscape, I know what's happening for me and I can communicate that well.
[00:24:04] And other people can do that. Chances are you're going to be able to progress and create safety, and there's going to be a sense of camaraderie that maybe wasn't there before. Absolutely. So when you create a safe space, what do you notice are the results of that for, for the people that you work with?
[00:24:24] And, and even for yourself too, like, what are you noticing the byproduct of creating that safe space and taking that time is? You know, within what I do, I have such a, the privilege and honour of working with individuals and what I'm noticing is that sometimes just by me being in the place where I need to be in terms of my pace evokes so much from my clients.
[00:24:54] I've had clients come in for the first time and they start [00:25:00] sharing all this stuff and I'm like, wait, wait, wait, let's slow this down. Let's, let's actually honour. A different pace while you're with me and in that moment, it creates all this like tears and the sense of like, Oh, I can relax here. I don't have to be anywhere.
[00:25:18] There's no agenda. There's no destination I have to get to. And it creates an opportunity, really an opportunity to be seen and cared for and loved and acknowledged. Right? I can't imagine in terms of like a group setting within healthcare, what that would feel like for people to feel acknowledged and cared for and loved and what, what kind of fire that would create in terms of change and transformation.
[00:25:52] Yeah. So, so that's, that's my area of work. And what I discover in doing that with one person [00:26:00] and one group and creating a space where people do feel safe enough to share their voice and feel acknowledged and seen and witnessed that. Yeah, it is emotional. There's there's sometimes emotions like sadness or anger or things that come up that have been wanting to be expressed for a long time and in the expression of those emotions and also acknowledging them and Listening at that level the pacing like you're saying People do feel relief they breathe A sigh of relief and they also noticed themselves and others in a different way than they did before that experience, you know, they didn't feel safe one moment and they saw people maybe as adversaries or at the best, maybe acquaintances, some, some close, but then they step into a safe space and they [00:27:00] realize that actually, regardless of whether or not they agree with somebody or, uh, You know, even like a person, they recognize and acknowledge their humanity that they have compassion for them.
[00:27:12] They have acceptance for themselves and for others. And yes, that does change the culture. All of a sudden, that level of unity creates a different kind of. Culture for them to work in now. This is a, this is also a practice. You know, this is not a one time thing. We don't check this off a list of boxes and go.
[00:27:32] Yeah. Okay, guys, we're good from here. No, we have to actually be very intentional with creating this kind of a space. And that's the kind of work I do with leaders. Is to help them to reprioritize their task list to go from, you know, just checking boxes and tasks and being busy all day to actually creating relationships and connection so that they have a team that all feels like they can share their [00:28:00] voice and they can show up and be who they are.
[00:28:02] Then the tasks. Funnily enough, get taken care of in a completely different, more vibrant, and even sometimes fun way compared to the other way, right? So I think that, that really, and at the end of the day, I, I don't use this word too much in my work, but I think that it's about healing, you know, it really is about healing and creating a space where People can heal.
[00:28:25] It's so funny, too, because we're in health care, right? We're talking about health care. You would think that it would be a space for healing for the people that provide health care, too Right. Yeah, why not? Well, I think what you're describing is this, you know People's vehicles running at peak performance, right?
[00:28:44] Like you're meeting all the needs of this system of your your internal Lights are telling you your emotions are telling you what your needs are are expressing and when we acknowledge When we share that, when we meet some of those needs, all [00:29:00] of a sudden your vehicle runs better, all of a sudden you can show up in your life a little bit better and you can see people with a little bit softer lens, right?
[00:29:10] When you're running at like not great capacity and you're just kind of barely getting through. You don't have the ability to do that anymore. Yeah. It's so interesting what, what, as you're saying that I'm thinking about the people that go home from the kind of culture I just described and they, they might be tired at the end of the day, but they feel energized.
[00:29:34] For their, for their family and to go home and to live their lives. Whereas if they don't feel safe, they go home completely drained and They're out of gas. They don't have anything else to give to anybody. So I really love that part because then people Can leave work and it's not a complete drain on their lives.
[00:29:54] It's actually a support system where they may be going home tired, but they're going home to be able to [00:30:00] also have energy for the most important areas of their life. So yeah, I really appreciate that. I think that's really important. I mean, let's face it, you don't go into this work because you don't love people and care about the outcome, right?
[00:30:14] Like, we want to actually feel fulfilled in that. We want to feel like we're making a difference. In our voice, our contribution matters. And when that, when that actually gets acknowledged and that happens, man, that can like carry people over for a long time, right? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, and then imagine just that becomes a part of our day to day routine.
[00:30:36] You know, this is the kind of place we work in. This is how we want our culture to be. So, so I'm curious, now that you've shared your work, how can people find you if they would like to engage you as a counselor? So I recently just started my practice. It's called All In Counseling Collective. So if you look that up, And Google me.
[00:30:58] It's there. I'm starting [00:31:00] to work in mission once a week in person. I will also do virtual through my own practice. So lovely. So if there was one thing that you'd like to leave the health care leaders and managers and practitioners with one thing you'd like them to remember, what would it be?
[00:31:21] You know, the thing that really surfaces for me is how much gratitude I have for the work. Really, I work with a couple doctors and nurses and just how important your work is. Yeah, I so appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Kimberly, for being with us and all the best in your new practice.
[00:31:47] Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you so much for staying to the end of the show and I hope and trust that this episode serves you in your work. If you'd like to reach out with any questions, please do that on LinkedIn or if you'd like [00:32:00] to reach out to Kimberly directly, you can find her contact information below.
[00:32:03] Thanks again for listening and remember. To be a safe space, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. I appreciate you as an expression of my gratitude and appreciation for the work that you're doing. I've created a downloadable resource for you. That is a safe space checklist. This is a checklist that you can use that will give you an immediate win by increasing your awareness of where you and your team are at right now.
[00:32:30] When it comes to creating a safe space to receive your safe space checklist, Click the link in the show notes of this episode. I hope you have a wonderful day and remember to be a safe space for yourself, the people around you and for your life.
[00:32:48] ​
