Caroline Veerman Introduction Interview
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[00:00:00] Caroline Veerman: Are we already on air?
[00:00:03] Trace Hobson: No, it's, we're just recording. It's okay. Okay.
[00:00:27] Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Safe Space Made Simple podcast, the podcast that's here to support you in learning how to create a safe space and also discovering what happens when you do, especially inside of clinical chaos or even just. Leadership chaos that you're experiencing in your role. I'm really excited about today's episode.
[00:00:48] We have Carolyn Vierman, my longtime friend and colleague on the show today, and she is going to be our periodic host at different times to bring in a Dutch perspective [00:01:00] on healthcare and what her experience as a long time leader in healthcare is right now and what it has been.
[00:01:06] Now, in today's show, we have an incredible conversation about Caroline's origin story and where she comes from. But we also talk about this really clear distinction between what it's like to be a leader that creates a relationship space or relational equity with their team and slows down to the speed of their presence to do that compared with being a more task oriented leader who's disconnected from their people.
[00:01:34] And both Caroline and I have really had this journey in our own leadership and management practice. And so we share our experiences with that. I trust that you're going to enjoy today's show. And so without further ado, let's move right into the show.
[00:01:47] Caroline, welcome to the Safe Space Made Simple podcast. Now, obviously you and I have known each other for a long time. And so I know your story, but what would be really helpful is if [00:02:00] you could share a little bit about who you are and the kind of work you do in the world for the people that are listening.
[00:02:06] Caroline Veerman: Yeah, we know each other for quite some time now and we've done some wonderful work also together which was always a joy. And so it's also a joy to be here now together. And as you said, I'm Caroline Vierman. I live in the Netherlands. And I work as a manager in healthcare organization and I've been working there for quite some time.
[00:02:30] And I myself, I don't work with the clients, but I work mainly indirectly with the clients through the staff that work with them. And they work with people who are both visually and auditory disabled. Yeah, a lot is going on in health care, also in the Netherlands, as well as in other parts of the world.
[00:02:54] And there's yeah, there's really a need for staff to [00:03:00] have a place where it's psychologically safe, where you can be with everything that's going on in your in the work they do with the clients, but also in themselves at home et cetera. And I really love facilitating and making it possible for my staff to, yeah, to have this safe place.
[00:03:25] And as a manager,
[00:03:26] It is important how I show up. In addition to the management work, I work as a coach and trainer. Mainly with the focus on building awareness, opening awareness to other levels of information, other levels than only mind and head information.
[00:03:48] And that's also the field where we worked
[00:03:50] Trace Hobson: together. So Carolyn, how many people do you have? On your teams right now,
[00:03:57] Caroline Veerman: I have [00:04:00] 180 people who, yeah, who work under my
[00:04:04] Trace Hobson: responsibility. Okay. And so when you are talking about creating a psychologically safe space or a safe place for people to work, what is that to you?
[00:04:15] How do you define that?
[00:04:17] Caroline Veerman: Yeah, to me, a safe space is a space where people can be who they are and show up with the things we maybe like about that person, but also with the things they don't like about themselves, but that are there at certain moments and that we can all hold that.
[00:04:40] for each other, that we can be there with the bright sides of ourselves, but also with the maybe not so bright sides, the shadow sides and that it's safe. psychologically safe to to say what you have to say at a certain moment. [00:05:00] And I, as a as a manager I have a focus. I have my focus also.
[00:05:05] And that's part of creating a safe space on listening, not only to the things that are being said. But also to the things that are not being said out loud. Inviting people also to share views that are not mainstream. And to bring in all of that and work with that.
[00:05:32] Trace Hobson: I'm curious, what are the problems and challenges that you're having in the Netherlands in healthcare that you feel like a safe space helps to address?
[00:05:43] Caroline Veerman: tHere's obviously work pressure because we have to do the work, a lot of work in a complex world because the world is getting complexer by the day, which is for our clients, [00:06:00] really a struggle. And so the work is building. We are doing the work with less people than we did 10 years ago, for example.
[00:06:12] So there's a lot of work pressure for people. That's something that can be really hard, it's also got to do with the many changes in the organization.
[00:06:25] And it demands from all the people working in your organization to go with it. So over the years, next you're in a, in addition to the work. Directly with the clients, there's more and more extra tasks that need to be done because of all this change. So now, for example, we're very focused on, , applying all the privacy and safety rules in a healthcare organization.[00:07:00]
[00:07:00] And we need someone who is a contact person for that. In addition to what they're already doing, and we need a contact person for this, and for that, and for another thing, and it's all piling up, and that's really
[00:07:17] Trace Hobson: demanding. Yeah, we call that working off the corner of our desks, so the people that are already there that have all kinds of things to do already, they get more and more added to their, the side of their desk until finally it gets so high that they can't actually, They just can't get everything done.
[00:07:34] And I'm curious about what you've noticed over the years that creates for people that kind of pressure and that stress. What are some of the stakes we're talking about in people's lives?
[00:07:47] Caroline Veerman: One thing that I've experienced myself, but that many of my staff also have experienced or experience is stress. and [00:08:00] anxiety and tiredness, which eventually leads to burnout. I myself have experienced burnout, not only because of work pressure and all these changes that go keep on going on in the organization.
[00:08:18] But it's piling up because there's also a lot going on in our families and in our private lives and with our children or with. Parents who get older and need our help and care. So it's all these things in our lives that for many people at a certain point might become too much. And then they fall out.
[00:08:43] That's that's one thing or they they're they get sick, uh, physically sick fall out for me is more that you're not able to emotionally or psychologically are able to keep on doing your [00:09:00] work, but they're, in addition to that, there are other people who can really physically Sick. yeAh, so those are
[00:09:07] Trace Hobson: the main.
[00:09:09] Yeah, those stakes are huge. Yeah, that's a, those are huge stakes. I and I know that you've experienced that in what you shared about burnout just now. And I've also experienced the same things, physical impacts and big challenges with relationships and also burnout too. So yeah, that's, so I guess that makes me curious.
[00:09:29] what your experience is then with a safe space and how that practically helps. Because if you look at this, we're talking about some pretty big systemic problems we have all over the world. We have them in Canada. It sounds like you have them in Holland too, where we're being asked to do more with less and faster times and more and more is getting piled on.
[00:09:49] And along with that, the work is already complex. It already has lots of demands in it. So How does creating a safe space in and of itself [00:10:00] address some of that fatigue and the stress that you're talking about and also the way that impacts us as human beings?
[00:10:08] Caroline Veerman: I think to answer this question, I best tell you about a conversation I had this week with one of my one of my staff basically ex staff, because she once worked in my unit, but now she works somewhere else.
[00:10:25] And what she shared was that and that was really also a heads up for my ego. She said you're being missed. I missed you when I left the unit where you were the manager. So I was curious and asked. So what is it, what did you miss about what are you talking here? And then she said, yeah, when we work together and you were our manager, you invited us to into a human space, a relational space, you [00:11:00] you really made us feel, me feel appreciated.
[00:11:05] being seen. And there was this relationship space in which we felt safe. And that was in addition to all the work we had to do. And because of that humanness and that Yeah, valued relationship. There was more resilience inside of me, she said, but also in the team I worked in. We there was, and that resilience had to do with , feeling actively appreciated.
[00:11:44] And also when things were rough, feeling actively invited to share that and not be not being alone with,
[00:11:56] Trace Hobson: tHis is really important and it makes me want to. Double click on this a [00:12:00] little bit, because I was also in a recent conversation with someone who was talking about how difficult it is to acknowledge and appreciate all the people on their team.
[00:12:10] And what you're describing, it sounds like your staff person was saying that somehow that showed up. In the space that you created. And what you're talking about isn't the same as what we would see in big organizations. I don't think when we do appreciation and recognition programs, oftentimes, people get little gifts or little things, nothing wrong with those, but.
[00:12:31] What you're talking about, I think, is a little bit different than that. It feels like you've, you created something in that relationship space with that staff person and with the team that was maybe not intentionally trying to create recognition or appreciation, but that's what showed up. So it makes me really curious, what do you notice the little simple inputs that you were doing as a leader were that created [00:13:00] that space?
[00:13:01] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. It starts with my awareness with the way I show up with me, basically. And when I am stressed and under pressure and closed down and not really interested in the people I'm with at a certain moment, then there won't be any magic happening between me and the other person.
[00:13:27] Yeah. So intentionally I I try, but it's more than trying. I practice being present. In my work and during work and not only during work it's not, it doesn't stop with the end of working hours. It's something that's in my life. So it's really about practicing presence.
[00:13:54] And in that presence, being able to hold everything that shows [00:14:00] up and to be with whatever it is that shows up. So it's really basically about a knowledge or being human. I, as a leader, I'm not better or more or less or something. As the other person, this staff person, for example, we're all humans, and we're having a task.
[00:14:23] We're doing a task. But basically, we're all struggling with the same issues. We can learn from each other. So I show Intentionally up as
[00:14:35] Trace Hobson: myself. That sounds like vulnerability to me. I think one of the traps that I've fallen into as a leader in the past, and I, that I observe others falling into as well, is this idea that I didn't always.
[00:14:49] Say with words, but that I felt, and that was like I have to have all the answers. I have to fix the problems when people come to me with complaints or things that they're [00:15:00] sharing that they're not happy about. I really actually felt like that was personally on me to do something about that, and I learned the hard way that's impossible.
[00:15:10] You just can't possibly. Fix all the problems. And so I ended up hitting a wall with that and, really suffered the consequences of banging my head against that brick wall over and over again. But what you're talking about is actually where I got to, too, I think is vulnerability and actually letting go of that idea and being, in your words, a human being with your people and just really.
[00:15:36] Showing up and go. Yeah, I don't know and I don't have the answers and let's talk about that and I'll listen to you as well. And that's not easy in a busy environment. So it makes me wonder how, what are you doing practically on your schedule? Like you're building capacity. to do that. You're practicing presence in your own life, and then you get to work.
[00:15:59] [00:16:00] And if your organization is anything like the ones that I've been in, things are going about 5, 000 miles an hour, it feels like sometimes. So I'm curious, what are you doing intentionally to create that kind of space on the calendar?
[00:16:15] Caroline Veerman: Yeah I I practice presence when there's space. Because if I am not able to be present with whatever shows up when it's quiet and when there's nothing particularly happening, then I won't be able to be present when it gets more intense.
[00:16:38] That's one thing. So I have this presence practice and that's really helpful.
[00:16:45] Trace Hobson: Yeah, Eckhart totally talks about that as well. I was listening to him today, coincidentally, and when things are going okay, that's the time to practice presence so that when the things are not going so okay, you have some capacity.
[00:16:59] So I [00:17:00] love that. What else are you doing?
[00:17:01] Caroline Veerman: Other things, I block hours in my calendar where there's space, because when I'm fully booked, uh, during the whole day, going from meeting to meeting, I, at the end of the day will be a zombie. I. would be life. Yeah. So I changed my the meetings I have from regularly one hour meetings to 45 or 50 minutes.
[00:17:31] So that gives me every hour, 10 minutes to well, to remember my presence practice. To, ah, maybe soften the out breath, because that's one active exercise I do very often, soften the out breath, because that really helps me Oh yeah, get back into the moment and out of the hat. [00:18:00] So shorter meetings I block hours where there's no meeting at all.
[00:18:07] And when things are getting, yeah, more heated. I very often also go to the washroom because there, I can realign, I don't have to go to the washroom.
[00:18:23] Trace Hobson: Yeah, nobody's going to tell you, you can't do that. Exactly.
[00:18:27] Caroline Veerman: And that's perfect
[00:18:29] Trace Hobson: to realign. It is perfect. Yeah, that's great. I love what you're sharing about that.
[00:18:33] I think that there's a couple of things that pop up for me when you're sharing that. The first one is that, I remember in my management when I really started to hit the wall in my leadership role, and I had to start to block out time like you're talking about, and I used to feel so guilty about that.
[00:18:50] And I, I even would hide it from people because I didn't want them to know. And then I realized like there's some kind of a belief that's going on for [00:19:00] me that says that I can't give this to myself, there, and I had to really cultivate some new ideas and beliefs about that. And it makes me wonder what kinds of beliefs are, have you created?
[00:19:11] First of all, can you relate to that? I don't know if you can. And then second of all, what were some of the beliefs that you had to cultivate so that you could block out time just to slow down and be present?
[00:19:24] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. I, and certainly I can relate to it. And I was like that too. That I thought I always had to be on top of everything.
[00:19:34] Then burnout happened because there was a pattern perfectionism control, wanting to control that in the end wasn't sustainable. And so I had to work with the beliefs that things had to be perfect. in The way that I had laid that I thought or think what perfectionism [00:20:00] is. Yeah, that's very Yeah.
[00:20:03] Subjective. What perfect is. And so I really had to work with the relativeness don't know if that's correct English, but the the knowing that everything is relative. Perfectionism is relative control and what you need to control. It's all relative.
[00:20:24] Trace Hobson: Relative to what do you think? Yeah,
[00:20:26] Caroline Veerman: relative in, I mean with that, that I have an idea about how I should do my work, but that's only my idea.
[00:20:35] Yeah. It's not the absolute truth. Because somebody else will have another idea. Understanding and really feeling that everything is relative in that way. That there's not, that there's not an absolute. Truth about anything that really opened up space and [00:21:00] space to make a conscious decision that being present is just as important as getting things
[00:21:08] Trace Hobson: done.
[00:21:09] I, yeah, I love this. You're preaching to the choir a little bit here because obviously we work together on this all the time, but I. I really think that there's something, , powerful about being present just from the perspective of I'm putting myself at the top of my priority list, even if that's for 10 seconds or three minutes, or I go to the bathroom because I need a time out.
[00:21:34] What I'm doing there is giving myself space and time to have capacity and to take care of myself because nobody else is going to take care of myself. I'm the one that's responsible for that. And in fact, if I don't put the oxygen mask on my own face, I'm not going to be there for anybody else.
[00:21:52] And I know that mentally, but it wasn't until I actually started to practice this that I realized my [00:22:00] stories about, what's relative So I'm supposed to be able to be there for everybody all the time, answer all the questions, know everything, solve the problem, that's insane when I actually thought about it.
[00:22:12] And then to take that time out, what that started to create inside of me was a realization after the fact that I would show up differently with people because I'd have a little more. Space and a little more energy to be present with people. Yeah, I really appreciate what you're sharing about that.
[00:22:30] I think that's really powerful.
[00:22:32] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. And maybe in addition to what you are already saying about it is that space is such an important. Quality in relationship, because when there's no space, no Spaciousness in a relationship, then you know that within an hour or a day, there will be conflict, right?
[00:22:57] And either conflict inside [00:23:00] yourself or conflict really in the relationship space. So space and spaciousness, and it starts with allowing myself. Space my space then invites others into also spaciousness. So , yesterday, my team leader, she shared with me something and I'll rephrase it a bit, but she said, I am so happy you have had a burnout. She didn't say that, but it was the
[00:23:32] Trace Hobson: thanks for that.
[00:23:33] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:34] Yeah. But it really made sense because she said, since you're back, there's so much more spaciousness. and because of that spaciousness you bring with you, I feel there's so much more space for me and I, the quality of my work has grown because of that spaciousness. [00:24:00] I, it's not that it was bad when we work together because.
[00:24:04] We, we had a good relationship already and it's now so much more yeah, . It's even better. And I do my work with more ease, get more things done, she says, and that's. All related to this space.
[00:24:27] Trace Hobson: Wow. Yeah, that's really interesting. Wonderful compliment. Yeah, that's a great compliment.
[00:24:32] How long has it taken for you to cultivate that kind of a space do you think as a leader?
[00:24:38] Caroline Veerman: I think
[00:24:39] four or five years.
[00:24:42] Trace Hobson: Yeah. Wow. So it takes some hard work.
[00:24:45] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. It, it's, I don't know if it's hard work, but it's not to create this space. I, both for myself and for the team I work teams I work with. It's. I don't know if it's [00:25:00] hard work. It's it's important to stay focused and to let go.
[00:25:07] That's what I found to let go of the need for immediate results. sO it's it, I wouldn't say it was hard work. It was more determined work. Yeah. And and it's not that it's. taken five years before there were any results. And there were any conversations like I had yesterday with my team leader, that there were already conversations after the first six months or something like that and recognition, but it's
[00:25:48] Trace Hobson: building.
[00:25:49] What were some of the early sort of indicators to you? Like when you first started that I'm betting that you probably didn't have a lot of experience with that kind of space you're [00:26:00] describing. So when you first started to work in a different way, what were some of the first things that you noticed that sort of threw some wind in your sails and really, Oh, okay, there's something here.
[00:26:11] I'm D I'm going to follow this. What were some of the first things you noticed? Yeah,
[00:26:15] Caroline Veerman: maybe the most important thing I. started working with and that opened up another path was this awareness and it wasn't new, but it landed on a different place inside myself, the awareness that I have a choice in how I relate to whatever is going on, how I show up.
[00:26:39] And I think that's basically what really started another path in in combination with also learning more about coaching.
[00:26:52] Trace Hobson: What did that give you before you go to coaching? So did that awareness of your ability to choose a different[00:27:00] Story or a different way of being, what did that awareness provide for you?
[00:27:04] That's like tangible and practical. Yeah,
[00:27:08] Caroline Veerman: it allowed me to look for to look at things, at situations, circumstances from another place inside myself, to not look at what was going on from this place of problem, red flag. Another problem was save it, quick fix, all of that. But it allowed me to look at it, maybe as in itself neutral and just information.
[00:27:41] And then yeah, and then decide that circumstance invited me. To bring into right
[00:27:52] Trace Hobson: equation. If I hear you correctly, I hear and just share with me that this resonates or not, but it sounds like there was some [00:28:00] pressure that was taken off and then you were able to choose. Something that you could actually control was the way that you showed up rather than trying to do something external.
[00:28:12] Does that make sense? Does that resonate for you? Yeah. Beautifully put. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I noticed the same thing. Like, when I first started doing this kind of work and I noticed that space you're talking about. I noticed that too. First of all, it took the pressure off of my shoulders.
[00:28:27] I didn't feel like it was all riding on me. And then I noticed that. I had more capacity to show up in a different way and I could actually do things that were responsible and that I could have control over, which were going on inside of me. And then when I did that. I started to notice some results like in that relationship space, you're talking about like people started to respond differently to me.
[00:28:53] So I, for me, yeah, that's what kind of started for me too. .
[00:28:56] Caroline Veerman: What I think also important is in [00:29:00] this choice. place is that what I noticed is that in this space, where I was asking myself who it was asking me to be in relationship to the circumstance, that I started working with the, with my qualities, with what already I would label as positive energy.
[00:29:31] And there's a huge difference in being positive or being negative and complain because you can't when you complain you're negative, you're really drained of energy. And it doesn't help. anyone, most of all, not the person who is negative. So I started to make more positive choices for myself.
[00:29:58] Trace Hobson: Yeah. Yeah.[00:30:00] You used to complain?
[00:30:05] Caroline Veerman: Who doesn't? Who doesn't? But
[00:30:07] Trace Hobson: yes, I did. Who doesn't? That's right. In, even if it's internal, there's complaints going on all the time, but I love what you're sharing about that because the energy of that. Is like the difference between a problem to solve or a message to listen to. If I've got a problem to solve, I've got a complaint about that.
[00:30:25] I want it, I want to fix it. I want it to go away. Or I have a complaint about a person or a project or whatever. But if it's a message. That takes the pressure off too. It's okay it's okay. I can listen to it in a different way. So yeah, I really appreciate what you're sharing there. I think that's powerful.
[00:30:43] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. So what I've learned over the years is to be with the circumstance as neutral, ask myself, so what is, what quality should I bring in? And then also Actively look for input [00:31:00] from others and bring that together. And then that's what I've learned now. And that's how it works. Then this problem or circumstance, it acts as a springboard, a jumping board to bringing. Everything that is related to it a step further,
[00:31:25] Trace Hobson: right? It's like leaning into the problem rather than away from it. And it's a springboard into what wants to happen. So you're talking about the three questions, and we'll get into that in later episodes.
[00:31:36] But I just want to highlight that and reference that as well, because the three questions of transformational presence coaching, for instance, are what wants to happen? Who is it asking me to be and what is it asking me to do and we'll get into sort of the nuances of those three questions. Of course, that comes from Alan seal and the center for transformational presence.
[00:31:57] Alan is a friend of both of ours and[00:32:00] created that, that modality, that model for coaching, which I think in complexity and pressure situations is a really beautiful way to navigate this. I want to get practical now, and you know that this podcast is designed for clinical leaders, and I'm noticing more and more that a lot of clinical leaders feel squeezed between two places.
[00:32:23] They feel squeezed between the point of care and all the staff that they are responsible for. And then also the management, the leadership, the executive leadership, the organization on the other side. And they literally oftentimes feel squeezed together. And that came up in a conversation where I shared, yeah, you're actually in a really difficult position because you're the bridge between, and she goes, the bridge.
[00:32:50] I feel like I'm squeezed between two places all the time. Like it's just, it feels like that. I'm curious, if that's something that you can relate to for your [00:33:00] organization and your teams as well. And if so, what kinds of things are you doing or is your team doing to show up and create that space you're describing?
[00:33:09] Yeah,
[00:33:10] Caroline Veerman: I can relate to it definitely because I too am in a role or a position where it's very easy to get squeezed exactly in a way as. That person you were talking to is describing. Yeah I don't know exactly what I'm doing. Maybe you can help me with some questions.
[00:33:34] Yeah. I don't feel squeezed. Although I am in a position, a management position where it could, I could easily be between the different, Levels, I don't, I am not squeezed.
[00:33:51] Trace Hobson: WHen you look back at the times, maybe when you did or have felt squeezed between those two places, what were some of the thoughts and [00:34:00] feelings that you had in that time as you look back at it from where you are today?
[00:34:06] I
[00:34:06] Caroline Veerman: think what probably has changed is that also, and that starts again internally, that when I felt squeezed, I was looking at higher management levels or staff being higher and lower. There's really something in higher and lower because then you're in the middle and then it's easy to get squeezed so I don't Look at it anymore as higher or lower because we're all Working together and we're having different responsibilities, but we are doing it together And probably that is or maybe that is key in why I don't feel squeezed anymore.
[00:34:52] I, over the years, learned to not look at the other as a potential
[00:34:59] Trace Hobson: enemy.[00:35:00] Yeah, we're in it together. We're not in it. Yeah. Although I think sometimes in organizations that are very still very hierarchical, I understand why somebody does feel squeezed. So it sounds to me like. Maybe you're not personalizing that in, in the same way that you used to.
[00:35:20] And for me I know I felt this too, like felt squeezed between two places and the thoughts that would go through me were things like, I've got to fix this. This is my fault. This complaint is somehow my responsibility. I would have a little bit of also what we call here in Canada, imposter syndrome.
[00:35:39] If I don't fix this, then maybe I'm not competent to do this job. And then I would feel anxiety, I would feel a lot of anxiety, but the anxiety would be below reactiveness and busyness and all of that. So for me, what's changed now is related to what you've shared. I love that because I really appreciate what you're sharing about.
[00:35:59] [00:36:00] Leveling the playing field. We aren't in a hierarchy. Actually, we're all human beings working together. And when that happens, then I'm not alone in this space, trying to do all things for all people. I'm actually part of a team. And maybe part of my role is to bridge between people. But if people don't want to drive over the bridge, that's not my responsibility.
[00:36:23] I can't take responsibility for that part. So I think there's a sense of depersonalization and not being enmeshed with people and also power in letting go of all that responsibility and looking to myself and my ability to respond in any given moment. So that's something we're going to unpack in the coming weeks as well.
[00:36:44] Does that resonate for you? What are your thoughts as you listen to what I share there?
[00:36:49] Caroline Veerman: Yeah, it does resonate very much. And and what I what comes to mind also when you're listening to you and as you're talking is that [00:37:00] this, uh, this leveling bringing it on a horizontal level that we're all human beings doing our jobs, et cetera, that really starts us.
[00:37:11] Also inside again, because when I make myself, yeah, what's the word?
[00:37:22] Trace Hobson: I don't know. I don't, I can't translate.
[00:37:24] Caroline Veerman: No, you can't help. So when I wait for my. Director, for example, to allow me to to bring in a horizontal connection where we're not enemies, but we're working together. When I wait for my director to allow that space or that, that's that energy or whatever to happen, then I can wait really,
[00:37:52] Trace Hobson: really long.
[00:37:53] It'll never happen. It will never happen, exactly. No, I get it. It's an
[00:37:57] Caroline Veerman: inside job.
[00:37:58] Trace Hobson: That's interesting. [00:38:00] Yeah. That's asking something of you as a leader to actually take care of your responsibility for you and also not wait for your director or anybody else to give you permission. Like you have to give yourself the freedom to do that.
[00:38:15] Yeah that's a really important piece I think that you've touched on there.
[00:38:19] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. And on the outside, I'm still really honoring the difference in responsibility we have and the difference in what we're allowed to do or to find or to decide but internally, I don't make myself either more than one who I'm talking with or less.
[00:38:44] Then
[00:38:45] Trace Hobson: what you're saying now is really important because I've been thinking about this and it's a bit of a nuance with what you're sharing. If I think I have the solution to a problem, or even if I feel pressure to [00:39:00] provide a solution to a problem, there's a part of me that is actually putting myself.
[00:39:05] In a position above the other person and that is inappropriate, like there's how do I know what to do? We need to actually work together to discover together what it is. And if you tell me what it is to do. Independent of a group, then the same things just happen. That person has made themselves into a position above and that happens all the time.
[00:39:29] But what you're talking about is flattening that and creating a space where we are practicing being equal and inclusive of each other so that we can work together in really complex situations. And I, I. I really appreciate this. I think that's a really powerful thing you're sharing. Yeah. I
[00:39:48] Caroline Veerman: think what leadership in my experience is all about the relationship space.
[00:39:57] Leadership happens in the [00:40:00] relationship space.
[00:40:01] YoU can't be a leader by yourself or out of. out of a connection with the one you're leading.
[00:40:08] Trace Hobson: So here's the rub though. Okay. So I agree with you. And I think that there are some leaders that are really good at that. And then there's, and they're, they have prioritized that in their calendar, their emails and their paperwork are not as important as connecting with the members of their teams and making time.
[00:40:28] To really develop that relationship space you're talking about. And the payoff is huge. Every manager or leader that I talked to that does that, they've figured it out because they've done the hard work in the front end of transitioning their mindset and doing that. And they've. Found out, whoa, this is an exponential return on investment because people are showing up to their team.
[00:40:49] They start to take leadership themselves. They start to show up differently. The whole team changes that said though, , the objection or the complaint about this is for a [00:41:00] manager that doesn't do that is look. I don't have time to do that. I have 180 people that, that report to me. I'm short staffed.
[00:41:08] I'm short on people. I'm losing people, all the complaints that come there. And the reason why that's all happening in my opinion is because they're not doing what you're sharing, which is investing in the real, that relationship space and really creating a space where people feel safe.
[00:41:27] Caroline Veerman: Yeah. And, sometimes you must, one must learn the hard way.
[00:41:32] I learned the hard way.
[00:41:35] Trace Hobson: Are you talking about me now? You're talking about me again, aren't you? No, I'm talking about myself. And the big hat, the scars on the head.
[00:41:44] Caroline Veerman: But so I started five years ago with creating this safe space in the unit talked about that before. And three years ago COVID happened and I was really pulled [00:42:00] into operational stuff.
[00:42:02] So from early morning till late at evening, seven days a week, I was going, all these things that had to be done and there wasn't time to think or to be present or whatever, all the stuff that we talked about before. And when things were opening up a bit, I wasn't able to get back to a more spacious.
[00:42:31] space inside myself, because I was really already two years into going. And I was a manager who would say, I don't have any time anymore for some presents. Practice or whatever because my calendar was full and then I hit the wall. anD I got sick burnout and from one [00:43:00] day to the other, I wasn't there anymore.
[00:43:04] aNd then at first I was horrified of course, because so how things continue to go because how
[00:43:12] Trace Hobson: are they going to go on without me? Exactly. I wasn't there to, and what happened, did they were, did they shut down your whole unit with all of your people when you left? Did they stop working? So the
[00:43:24] Caroline Veerman: interesting thing, of course, you know what I'm saying already?
[00:43:28] My team leader took over and there wasn't even an interim manager or something. My team leader stepped in and. she managed to keep everything going. And then after a year and a half, I go back, rewired in the way that we talked about it. And and so now I know that when you are like, I was a manager who is in this [00:44:00] drive of getting things done doing, that is a mode from which you can't easily switch.
[00:44:07] To a more balanced equilibrium between doing and being, because that's what we're talking about. A balance between doing and being. But when you're in overdoing, you really need I don't know, something either a wall or when you're lucky and you have enough energy and awareness inside yourself to do it without a wall, you need some hard work, maybe
[00:44:37] Trace Hobson: So the irony of course is that when a manager or leader says they have no time and then circumstances, life, their body, relationships, something happens where life says, actually, you've got all the time in the world now, and if had they.
[00:44:55] Listen, had you listened? Had I listened? Because I had the same experience, I lost my [00:45:00] health and I was off work for two and a half years, three surgeries an autoimmune disease. I experienced that in a big way. And. One way or the other, the time is going to be spent. You can either do it the hard way or the easy way.
[00:45:13] Which one, which way would you like to do it? And the easy way is always to do what you're doing now, which is to block out time, to make meetings a little shorter, to spend a little more time, go to the bathroom. If you need to, I love some of the suggestions that you've shared here today. You're going to be a periodic host, bringing a Dutch perspective into this. So I love that you're going to be a part of this. And so we're going to have more time to talk and to also interview different people together and learn more together about.
[00:45:45] The two questions we're trying to answer in this podcast, number one how do you create a safe space in the middle of chaos, especially clinical chaos, or in healthcare organizations where things are going so fast, and then what happens when [00:46:00] you do, what are the safe space stories of human beings that experience that, and you've told a couple here today, now, As you think about those clinical leaders that are listening to this podcast, what's one last thing you'd like to leave them with as we wrap up today?
[00:46:19] Keep on breathing.
[00:46:20] Caroline Veerman: Keep
[00:46:21] Trace Hobson: on breathing. Keep on
[00:46:25] Caroline Veerman: breathing. Yeah, just take one breath now
[00:46:29] Trace Hobson: and then. Yeah, one conscious breath. Eckhart Tolle talks about taking one conscious breath. And that's a breath where you just, you sit in your chair. And you take a deep breath down into your belly and you know that you're in your belly because it actually goes out and then back in again, not your chest.
[00:46:50] And then you take another one of those and that takes about five seconds to do that. So I think that's a great suggestion. Caroline, thank you so much for being here. It's been great to talk [00:47:00] with you and I'm looking forward to future conversations as well. Me too. Leuk. What does leuk
[00:47:08] Caroline Veerman: mean? Leuk nice. Goed bezig. Goed bezig, yes.
[00:47:15]
[00:47:15] Gezellig. Gezellig.
[00:47:19] Trace Hobson: Cozy.
[00:47:21] Okay. So that's the end of our episode. I trust that that served you and that you got as much out of it as I did. And Carolyn did by all means go ahead and subscribe to our podcast. If this is serving you, if you feel that this resonates with you and you'd like to learn more, we have episodes that come out every Tuesday.
[00:47:39] And if you'd like to leave a comment as well about the podcast, that'd be very helpful as well for other people who are trying to find the same kind of support. Now, in today's episode, Carolyn and I talked about a lot of different practical things that you can do. And so if you'd like to get that tip sheet, click the link below and request access to it. And you'll be able [00:48:00] to action that right away.
[00:48:01] Thank you so much for staying until the end of the podcast. Both Caroline and I appreciate you and the work that you're doing. And we trust that this in some small way gave you a taste of the power of creating a safe space for you and for your team. Have a great day today. Remember, be well.
